astridv | (no subject)

I'm still following the fic debate on Goldberg's blog (rerun #2047). No, I won't get into the usual conflating of legalities/ethics/morals and the invocation of Godwin's law - I've come to expect nothing less from that blog. No... I'm stumped on what a fundamental level the anti-fic crowd don't get us.

They do not get the basic motivation for writing fanfic. They don't even seem to realize that there's a whole group of people who love to read it, that there's an actual eager audience for it, that fic is - among other things - an act of communication. That it fills a need. In fact, the group of fic readers has been continually glossed over as long as I'm following this debate, as if they don't factor in.

It becomes crystal-clear each time someone suggests that it's okay to write it for practice as long as you don't post it (*head/desk*)... or to write it and then change characters and settings to turn it into an original work before posting it. Every time I read the arguments, I sit there staring at the screen, bewildered by the gulf between the two mindsets.

It's like two races of aliens trying to communicate.

Kind of exasperating but fascinating nonetheless.

Here's my crazy hypothesis - feel free to disagree: I've come to suspect there are two sorts of people... those who daydream and those who don't. There're those who watch a show, only to have the characters take on a life of their own in their heads, who can't help making up little tales: when I was a kid, I spent hours on end walking through the forest with the dog, making up little stories in a weird crossover 'verse made up of Star Trek and Star Wars and my favourite young adult novel series (complete with Mary Sue and boy, am I glad the internet wasn't around back then). I couldn't get enough of that, and I always kind of assumed that everyone does that. (I still write fic in my head nowadays, except sans Mary Sue.)

But I'm no longer so sure everyone does it, otherwise how do folks like the commenters on Lee's blog don't realize, no matter how often rational people like

lost_erizo and

lexin tell them, that for the vast majority of fic writers, fic is not the means to an end (which would be becoming a rich, famous writer, I suppose). There're pleasant side benefits, like improving your writing skills and making friends, getting feedback... but fanfic is what it's about - the sharing of stories about characters you love with likeminded people. Doesn't get much simpler than that, one should think.

Well, maybe those folks do daydream strictly original szenarios, who knows. In any case, this debate will go round and round and round and never ever be resolved. But from a cultural viewpoint, I find it interesting.

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I think there are indeed two mind-sets in this debate, and they don't really have much to bridge the gulf.

In ProVerse, it's all about the money. It is perfectly understandable to wish to make money by doing something you enjoy, in this instance, writing. And it is money that *validates* the writing, validates the time and effort and imagination and whatever else goes into the writing. It is, I suppose, the world in which we live, most of the time, where there is an economy and everything has a value and that value is expressed in terms of how much somebody will pay for it. There is also a limited supply of validation, ie money, to be had, and it must therefore be competed for.

Fanworld doesn't have that kind of economy. The validation in Fanworld comes from the participation, the community. We write for pleasure, we share it with other people who take pleasure in the same things, and we establish ourselves within the fannish community through our participation - by writing, or giving feedback, by doing beta work, or producing art or vids or meta, and none of it paid for. In fact, if anything it costs us money. At any rate, money is not the reward, is not the validation. And as for competition? We don't really do that either. Sure, individual writers may measure ourselves against other people, inside our own heads, but on the whole, we collaborate. We understand that there is room for a hundred fictional variations on a single incident from canon, and that we can enjoy all of them and go back to canon and enjoy that too.

I suppose the other half of the argument is that we are 'stealing' from the pro writers. (Hee - can I exempt myself from that, on the grounds that I write RPS these days?) Again, I think the difference between ProVerse and Fanworld explains it: in ProWorld, everything is property, and has a value, and anyone who does anything with My Property is potentially messing with its value, and Damaging Me.
In Fanworld, the whole *point* is the re-imagining, because that is what we *do*. And if someone does it well, then the whole community can be enriched by the sharing. Hell, even when someone does it *badly* the community can end up enriched. For certain rather twisted values of 'enriched'... My icon is, well, an example of this.

But the ProVerse mind-set is not going to understand the values of Fanworld, and ultimately, there isn't really much point trying. We just have to roll our eyes and go back to the fun stuff.

Oh - forgot to say, here via

metafandom

And it is money that *validates* the writing, validates the time and effort and imagination and whatever else goes into the writing.

I think you have a point there, in that some writers might feel that amateurs intruding on their domain *and* giving away for free a product they sweat over, might devalue their work. That's the impression I'm getting from some of the posters on that blog.

But.

...ack, I'm not done but dinner's ready and my presence needed, be back later to write the rest of my reply.

... okay, what I was gonna say before I was rudely interrupted by rl...

And as for competition? We don't really do that either. Sure, individual writers may measure ourselves against other people, inside our own heads, but on the whole, we collaborate. We understand that there is room for a hundred fictional variations on a single incident from canon, and that we can enjoy all of them and go back to canon and enjoy that too.

No unlimited resources... that's a really good point. I completely agree on the economic differences between Fanworld and Proworld. It's just that there's no clean divide between the two worlds since there're plenty of pros who do both. Some, like

rachel_caine don't even use a pseudonym and write both their original novels and their fan fiction under the same name. (I'm citing her because I know she doesn't mind... but there're dozens more.)

Myself, I illustrate kids' books in real life, and in my spare time I do fan art. It's pretty much the same thing, just without any money involved. It would never occur to me to value my fan art any less just because it's unpaid. And there are countless other benefits involved. That makes it even more exasperating to hear those pro writers talk derisively about what we do. To think just in terms of money seems downright pitiful.

And the thing is, I can see where those guys are coming from even though I disagree with them. When you get started out in the world of publishing, they make you pay your dues. It was no fun for me. When you're a struggling artist/writer, a lot of resentment can built up because you feel your work isn't valued. You're expected to hand in produce work samples for free... yeah, no fun. Personally, I think some never get over that even when they've become established and could feel secure in their work. That's my take on it anyway. /psychobabble.

But, like I said, it's not a pro thing in general.

I'd say that the two worlds I've described don't correspond exactly to professional vs amateur writers - as you say, there are some who do both, and there are some amateurs who despise fanfic in the same way and for the same reasons as the anti-fanfic pro writers. It's an attitude thing rather than a status thing... I don't think it's only the people who straddle (or have crossed) the divide who understand the Fanworld state of mind.

It's tempting to describe it as a masculine/feminine divide, and there's much to be said for that, even though there are females in ProVerse and males in Fanworld.

Another thing the ProVerse people tend to forget is that what emerges as published fiction is, of course, selected. And polished and finished. Fanfic on the internet runs the entire gamut from prizewinners to the dregs of the slush pile, because there isn't any limitation at the publishing end. If we looked at *all* the fiction that is submitted to publishers, rather than just the stuff that has made it through the process and been published, there wouldn't be quite such a quality issue, would there?

It's tempting to describe it as a masculine/feminine divide, and there's much to be said for that, even though there are females in ProVerse and males in Fanworld.

It is tempting. I've always been wary to go there, for the reasons you say. But after seing Mark A. York spout off one misogynistic phrase after the other...

What a surprise? A woman fanfictress like Rommel. I think the "We" says it all. We women thieves sisters in arms and all. A defender of stolen crap by a writer of it. Yawn. Such blatant shillery.

I'm telling ya, it's become even more tempting than before to reduce this whole conflict to a gender issue. (I'm not saying it is. That would be way too easy. But I think it's a factor.)

If we looked at *all* the fiction that is submitted to publishers, rather than just the stuff that has made it through the process and been published, there wouldn't be quite such a quality issue, would there?

Exactly!