astridv: (Default)
astridv ([personal profile] astridv) wrote2007-05-16 03:08 pm
Entry tags:

My two cents on FanLib.com

(I gotta get to work but this meta has been scratching at the inside of my head, wanting out.)

[edit: removed the direkt link to fanlib.com; no need to up their google ranking] The FanLib discussion has finally hit [livejournal.com profile] metafandom; tomorrow it should be all over LJ.

My first reaction when I read about it on [livejournal.com profile] fanthropology last week was: knee-jerk unease and skepticism. Now that I've checked out the site and a little of the debate, my response is: yet more unease and skepticism: the whole thing makes my hair stand on end. Can't help it, it smells of exploitation and viral marketing... some entertainment business folk trying to get their foot in the door and cash in on things that we do for free, driven by nothing but love for a story or a fictional character.


One problem is that it's a multifandom fic archive that's owned by people with no roots in fandom and no real understanding of our particular community and subculture.

The site's slogan is: "The world's greatest fan fiction by popular demand." That's the kind of marketing lingo that goes over really well. I did some browsing through the fic that's already up... can't say I'm impressed. Small wonder, it's a non-selective archive, of course they can't have 'the greatest'. Come to think of it, it's that bubbly, hyperbolic marketing-speak that's responsible for much of my knee-jerking. All this talk of 'exciting' or 'grand prizes' sounds, I don't know... artificial.

From the press release:
The launch of FanLib.com represents the coming of age of fan fiction, or "fanfic."
*twitch*
"For my most passionate fans, reading isn't enough—they want to extend the story, to put their favorite characters in new situations," said Scott Westerfeld, New York Times bestselling author of the Uglies trilogy. "FanLib.com helps these readers find each other and gives them a space to share what they've created."
What would we do without them.

I think what I find most disturbing (not getting into the complete lack of women - or anyone with any fannish history - on the board) is this part:
FanLib.com launches with co-promotional partners including HarperCollins, Penguin Books, Showtime Networks, Simon & Schuster, and Starz Entertainment. The launch partners are heavily featured and have customized marketing integrated on the site while providing promotion for FanLib.com.
The whole issue of copyrights and licenses is completely unresolved, yet here's a for-profit enterprise who're completely upfront about their intention to make money from the site. (note: I do think it's a good thing that they're upfront about it, but that still leaves the problems inherent in it.)

The thing is that because of said partnerships with some publishers or networks, one could get the deceptive impression that the fic on the site has TPTB-approval. If you look closely, nowhere does it say that the actual copyright holders have given their okay. Of course they haven't... and if they had it'd be a huge thing that we certainly would've heard of.

Fanfic has always been denied real recognition and Fanlib isn't changing that. It gives an illusion of recognition and legitimacy, but not the real thing. I doubt they would provide the fic writers with any kind of protection from charges of copyright infringement.

All that said, I actually like the site itself. Don't look at me like that *g*. It's a bit too flashy for my personal taste but it's obvious there's a lot of effort going into designing and maintaining it. Maybe it'll catch on. Maybe the license thing won't be an issue. But fact is that a) the people making money off it are neither the writers nor the copyright holders, but a third party, and b) we're left in just the uncertain legal position we've always been in. I do have trouble imagining how it is supposed to work. I'm really unclear on the legal implications.

I just know that this is as far from 'flying under the radar' as it gets. They had a *press release*, for Pete's sake.

[eta: by [livejournal.com profile] angiepen: Browsing the FanLib TOS. Interesting, to say the least.]

[eta2(May18): FanLib Emerges From Stealth Mode with $3M in Funding and Big Media Sponsors
quote: "This is one niche site that has a lot of support and will do well capitalizing on existing communities around media for an extended period of time."
... no comment.]

[eta3(May19): From BusinessWeek (MARCH 13, 2006): Putting The Fans To Work
choice quote"The genius of FanLib is realizing that fans can be happy just being recognized."
HAAAHAHAhahaha]
ext_1771: Joe Flanigan looking A-Dorable. (Default)

[identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com 2007-05-16 01:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Hrgh. Same here. I registered to cybersquat my name, but God be my witness, no fic o' mine (and the copyright holders yadda yadda) will ever end up there.
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[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-16 04:58 pm (UTC)(link)
You cybersquatter, you.

I think the best thing would be to boycott the site. Voting with our feet, lest this sort of thing catches on. It opens a whole can of nasty wiggling worms.

Those people can't be unaware of that. I mean, those are industry people. They got a lawyer on their board of directors, I believe I read. Even their "co-promotional partners" don't own the rights of the majority of the fic featured on that site... What the hell are they thinking? Do they *want* to push a test case?

Besides, I think that fic should be not-for-profit and covered by fair use but *if* someone gets to profit, it would seem appropriate that the fic writers and the copyright holders get a cut.

[identity profile] yseultdb.livejournal.com 2007-05-16 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Am also joylessly cybersquatting.

They got a lawyer on their board of directors, I believe I read.
Sure sounded like it. We'll see what happens.
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)

[personal profile] cofax7 2007-05-16 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Did you read the post and comments on [livejournal.com profile] genreneep?
The Here. [livejournal.com profile] jdsampson, IIRC, helps run the boards. Her position appears to be that it's all fine and dandy that men from outside fandom can appropriate the product of forty years of female creativity, for profit. Why ever should it be a problem to have only men in charge? Why ever should the legal situation be a problem? After all, it's only what LJ and YahooGroups do...

::bangs head against desk repeatedly::

Honest to god, I can't tell whether it's just amateur hour or active evil. Or both. Trumpeting their partnerships with publishers and content providers makes it more likely they'll lose an infringement suit, not less.

And... I just had a horrible thought: you could take down fandom from the outside, by drumming up enough attention that the producers have to take action....
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[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-16 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey, haven't seen you around in ages! :)

Sure sounded like it. We'll see what happens.

Yeah. It's at least interesting to watch. All former attempts to turn fic into coin have been stomped out rather quickly. And the fact that these are outsiders, with money and business sense but without fandom street cred, can't help things.
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[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-16 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I read some of that thread. I've seen jdsampson state elsewhere (on the fanthropology thread I think) that ffn is making a profit as well, arguing that fanlib is not different from ffn. I'm wondering whether there is any truth to that statement or whether it's BS. As far as I know, all sites like ffn are non-profit, the money going into maintaining the archive.

I see that she didn't argue further when you said that ffn is not for profit. That would speak for the BS theory.

I'm a little wary when it comes to the gender issue because I think it's just one factor out of many (and I know plenty of male fic writers) but yeah, I find it offputting to see not one woman on their board of directors. It leaves a nasty aftertaste.

And... I just had a horrible thought: you could take down fandom from the outside, by drumming up enough attention that the producers have to take action....

A paranoid little part of me had the same thought, that someone's trying to force fanfic before a court, but I don't really believe that. Not least because too much thought and work went into that site. And who would be interested in that? Fanfic, as it is now, benefits all involved (Lee Goldberg's opinion notwithstanding).

Honest to god, I can't tell whether it's just amateur hour or active evil. Or both.

The mind, it boggles, eh? They got a lawyer, a high-profile one from the sound of it... they must be completely aware of the implications, and they must believe they'll be able to weasel out of any possible infringements suits. Which doesn't bode well for the writers who post there, imho.

Meh. All in all it's too high-profile for something that offers no legal protection in return. Why would anyone post there when they got LJ and ffn and, well, thousands of other sites.

[identity profile] topaz-eyes.livejournal.com 2007-05-16 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Yup. On its "Partners" page, the words "officially-sanctioned" rang all sorts of bells.
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)

[personal profile] cofax7 2007-05-16 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, it's total BS, especially in light of the Grokster decision.

LJ and YG and other for-profit internet services market themselves in a variety of ways, none of which rely on fannish participation. In fact, if fanfiction went away, LJ and YG and all would be perfectly fine. They support us, but they don't cater to us and don't advertise to us and don't design the services around us.

FFN is more problematic, but it is, in the end, merely a larger version of the Gossamer archive or my homepage on Shriftweb. Or, say, back in the days when I was on Freeservers or people had Geocities pages--all those ad-supported homepages we used to suffer through. Ad-supported, but nobody's actually profiting in a measurable way from the infringement. FFN is so large that frankly if anyone was going to take action, they would have done so by now. As it is, TWOP just got bought (by Yahoo? Sony? Someone) and nobody's yet shut down the fic-recommendation forums over there.

In Grokster, the Supremes shot down Grokster because it targeted the infringing activity, because they designed the service around sharing copyrighted material--and they made money off of it. That is the analogy I find most telling here.

They claim they have a lawyer, but it's entirely possible he's been to two meetings and his practice involves only negotiating percentages in acting contracts for his clients, so he really doesn't know anything about the legal issues in fanfiction. Also, just because he's on the board doesn't mean they actually had someone do the legal analysis. Additionally, as [livejournal.com profile] morgandawn pointed out in my comments, lots of lawyers give good advice and then get ignored by their clients anyway...

[identity profile] yseultdb.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 02:30 am (UTC)(link)
haven't seen you around in ages!

Been lurking and snarfing all the Jericho eps I could watch at one go!

fanlib

[identity profile] mimbo.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 06:45 am (UTC)(link)
hey everyone,
I'm Chris one of the founders of FanLib> it's really late and i have been working on the site all day. I'm exhausted but i just realized what was going on here and all of the commentsts are making me sick. we're a small company with 10 emplyees who work 16 hours a day to try and make a great website. we're real people! with feelings and everything! we have been working on this and dreaming about it for a long time and you are just here to shit on it without giving us a chance. i care deeply about what you think but this is crazy. we're good people here and you make us sound like we're an evil corporation or the govt. sending your kids to war or something. we really are all about celebrating fan fiction and fan fiction readers and writers. im sorry this is so short and please excuse the fact that i am cutting and pasting this across a bunch of ljs but i gotta get some sleep.
chris

What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate

[identity profile] morgandawn.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 07:08 am (UTC)(link)
woh! if this really is coming from one of the founders of fanlib, than I think their business model may be a self-correcting one - in that a lack of professionalism and inability to discuss the issues (even with people that are - in one's own opinion - being unreasonable) are the hallmarks of failure.

So let's hope this is a troll and not the "coming of age of fan fiction, or "fanfic."

PS. You keep using this word "fanfic".... I do not think it means what you think it means....
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Re: What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate

[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 07:57 am (UTC)(link)
Huh. Just got out of bed and this comment is the first thing I see. I'm pretty sure it's a troll, but I need to have some tea and get some more info before making up my mind.

But dude, yeah, if this is not a troll... no, can't be. My whole impression of their site was one of professionalism. This... doesn't compute.
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[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 08:19 am (UTC)(link)
Honest to god, I can't tell whether it's just amateur hour or active evil. Or both.

*points to comment by [livejournal.com profile] mimbo below*
I see you got the same one. If that's indeed the real thing and not a troll, I have to go with amateur hour. Jeez, when people raise some well-founded concerns, the thing to do is to address their concerns. Provide a counterargument, maybe too. Not whine that your feelings were hurt because some people dare to disagree with what you do.

For years, in some cases decades, we've been walking on eggshells, trying not to draw too much attention from TPTB and in come FanLib, behaving like an elephant in a porcellain shop. How the frek did they think the LJ community would react?

Re: What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate

(Anonymous) 2007-05-17 09:28 am (UTC)(link)
It's a troll. The posts from staff on their forums are unfailingly polite, regardless of whether the poster is criticising something they've done, and correctly spelt and capitalised.

Why would anyone post there? Well, to my mind, it's a competitor to fanfiction.net. And when's the last time anyone saw any moderation going on round there? The most popular forum by far is run by a twat who thinks it's clever to post personal abuse as reviews (he claims to have left over 5,000 so far), and that it's funny to suggest an author goes out and kills themself, provided he only picks stories which aren't very well written. The Misc subsections are so full of original fic that you can barely find a fic which should be there. There's no help/support section any more, so no way to request new sections for new movies/shows etc. Even blatant cut-and-paste plagiarism isn't removed, and nor is the sort of RPF which is far more likely to bring about lawsuits than anything fanlib is doing. And nobody dares leave a review which so much as says you're spelling the name of a canon character wrong any more, because they know full well they're setting themself up for abusive reviews and PMs with no report mechanism. That flamer I mentioned? Has a sockpuppet account, so you can't delete his copy/pasted random abuse, and can't report him (no fics to report, no way to report members, no way to report reviews, no way to report forums even if they do break every rule there is). In my fandoms, people are deserting for fanlib in droves.

lj? I write in a couple of small, old fandoms. I might as well leave my fanfic under the bed. I'd never get any casual readers there either.

Give me a well-run, not-for-profit fanfic site owned by people who care, and I'll post there, every time. Fanfiction.net used to be that, but it isn't now. Give me the choice between an abandoned flamer's paradise and a well-run site with commercial backing but which costs me nothing to use, and I'm going for the commercial one.
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Re: fanlib

[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 09:31 am (UTC)(link)
Actually it's the fact that you deleted this comment in other journals that convinced me that you're not a troll. Which leaves me even more stumped at the sheer unprofessionalism of your comment. I thought my post was quite balanced and reasonable. I raised some valid concerns (and yes, I have read your new & improved FAQ but the concerns remain), and if you want to respond, it would be a good idea to stay away from language like "you are just here to shit on it".

Not to mention that you went out of your way to spam people in their privat journals. But okay, 16 hour day. Cautionary tale of why one should never ever post online when overtired, I guess.

I'm starting to wonder whether you guys are actually not aware of the fact that fanfic's legal status is completely hanging in the air, and that you're dealing with a community who have been operating under the assumption that at any given moment they could get into legal trouble for what they do. And the occasional C&D that some writers/artists get hit with show that any paranoia on our side is far from unfounded.

I wholeheartedly believe that not-for-profit fanfic (emphasis on not-for-profit) should be protected under the fair use clause. I hope that one day there will be a decision in that regard. Until then, I'm treading carefully.

So, if you're dealing with fandom, you really should be aware of that paranoia, and acknowledge that there's a reason for it. Also, you really need a thicker skin or stay away from LJ. Arguing is what we do here. And the fic community is not gonna mollycoddle anything that has 'corporate backup' written over it.

Re: fanlib

(Anonymous) 2007-05-17 10:17 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, I normally lurk, but this is getting to me.

I've written fanfic for 25 years without ever having an lj account. Like it or not, you are not, nor do you represent, "the fic community". There is no one fic community, and your particular little clique has no right to expect to have input into how other fanfic sites are run. Don't like fanlib? Then don't post your fic there. But sitting here whinging about how "the fic community" wasn't consulted, or, oh, no, the site's run by MEN!!!, does you no favours at all.

I have no association with fanlib at all, except that I think it offers me as a fanfic author a darn good facility. Plus it's far less likely to end up in court than fanfiction.net is, since it's being actively moderated. Right now the only way an affronted party could get something taken down from fanfiction.net WOULD be a lawsuit, since they don't respond to abuse reports any more.
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Re: fanlib

[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 10:24 am (UTC)(link)
nor do you represent, "the fic community".

Fair enough. My bad.

and your particular little clique has no right to expect to have input into how other fanfic sites are run.

But we do have the right to express our opinions about them. Which we do. One wonders why FanLib are even bothered by the opinions voiced by our 'little clique'.
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Re: fanlib

[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 10:27 am (UTC)(link)
... also, please sign your posts when you post anonymously, otherwise it can be difficult to tell the various mice apart.
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Re: What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate

[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 10:52 am (UTC)(link)
It's a troll. The posts from staff on their forums are unfailingly polite, regardless of whether the poster is criticising something they've done, and correctly spelt and capitalised.

I've gone back and forth but I think it's the real thing.

Btw, could you sign your posts here? As soon as I get more than one anonmymouse, it easily gets confusing...

2 cents from nowhere

[identity profile] cesperanza.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 12:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I have to say, while I don't like the fanlib site, and I don't want to see profit brought into the community as a factor, and I certainly don't like the all male board of directors, I reject this argument that we should be legally worried because fanfiction is infringing. I don't think it is. There's been no legal ruling that says that it is. I think when/if it goes to court--if it ever does, which I don't think it will--fanfiction will be declared to be a transformative work. There's a huge difference between fanfic--where all the words are mine, that I put down in a unique order to convey a message that came out of my brain, even if the message is as simple as "Rodney and John are in love," (which it never is) and music or video piracy, where the mp3 someone gives me is the exact thing that I would have paid for. Vidding is a trickier case, because the source is theirs and the music is theirs and the uniqueness is in the conjunction/editing, but I'm hopeful even their that the effort put into creating the message of the vid would be enough to get us a transformative ruling. But fanfic--fanfic's a much easier sell, and slash fanfic even more than gen is a good sell (because the message is more transformative of the original source.)

And here's my devil's advocate argument: even if I haven't convinced you, it's a good thing for you to not SAY you think it's infringing anywhere in public. Because if I were the other side's lawyer, I'd say, "See! They think it's illegal!" Where I think most fans think it's illegal because they got that worried feeling through the fannish zeitgeist.
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Re: 2 cents from nowhere

[identity profile] astridv.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)
You don't have to convince me; ironically that is the position I usually argue. Talk about playing devil's advocat. ;)

There's been no legal ruling that says that it is. I think when/if it goes to court--if it ever does, which I don't think it will--fanfiction will be declared to be a transformative work.

I agree. That is exactly what I believe (with my layman's knowledge of IP law, anyway), after reading numerous discussion on this subject. But there's no court decision so there's no way of knowing whether said belief might not be wishful thinking. Fans generally don't have the necessary dough to fight a C&D so the usual reaction is to just cease and desist, no matter whether they would have a fair chance of winning.

Also, one of the factors in our favor has always been that fic is non-profit, do you think endeavours like FanLib will decrease fanfic's chances in court? (I mean theoretically, as I believe that no one really has an interest in taking the matter to court)

And here's my devil's advocate argument: even if I haven't convinced you, it's a good thing for you to not SAY you think it's infringing anywhere in public. Because if I were the other side's lawyer, I'd say, "See! They think it's illegal!" Where I think most fans think it's illegal because they got that worried feeling through the fannish zeitgeist.

Hm. Interesting view. I'll mull it over
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Re: What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate

[identity profile] telesilla.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Judging by his response (http://telesilla.livejournal.com/553920.html?thread=4406464#t4406464) in my LJ linking me to the FAQ and saying that I should read it and consider the dialog open, I'm guessing it's real.
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)

Re: fanlib

[personal profile] cofax7 2007-05-17 04:34 pm (UTC)(link)
you are not, nor do you represent, "the fic community".

Well, I think Astrid represents the fic community the same way I do, or you do, or any of us do. Which is something that Chris, above, seems to miss: fandom is not a monolith. We can only speak for ourselves and those we know, and even then we disagree and squabble amongst ourselves.

The discussions on LJ about Fanlib aren't the result of some coordinated attack: it's a lot of individuals going, "Hmmm, this bothers me and this is why." So sure, some people are going to say Fanlib is awesome, but Astrid and I and Telesilla and Angiepen all have the right to say what we think, as well.
astolat: lady of shalott weaving in black and white (Default)

Re: fanlib

[personal profile] astolat 2007-05-17 05:02 pm (UTC)(link)
This is probably not a troll. I don't know the guy personally but know people who do.

Chris: you guys are doing something sleazy and selfish, you ARE an evil corporation, and NO, we do not have to give you a chance. You didn't bother getting a single fanfic writer/reader on your board, you didn't bother with any outreach to our community or give a second's thought to our concerns, so why should we? You are clearly just trying to make money and a name for yourselves on our backs, and the intellectual property of the original creators.

Speaking for myself, I intend to do anything I can to urge other fanfic writers not to post on your site and to set up an alternative. One thing your FAQ is right about is that fanfiction.net is not particularly better.

Sick

[identity profile] zorrorojo.livejournal.com 2007-05-17 06:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm literally sick to my stomach right now browsing that site.

Disgusting. Should have known the profit driven would eventually try to worm their way into fandom.

Anyone who posts their stories there is kind of foolish. Unless they *like* other people profitting off of their work.

I do not believe fanfiction is copyright infringment and do believe if it ever actually went to court, it would fall under fair use for transformative works. I'm neither a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, however so YMMV

(oh, and here from Ces's LJ in case you're wondering.

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