astridv | (no subject)

I can't get the logic either. Except apparently we're supposed to hate Ward, I guess.

Oh yeah, that's what it boils down to. And they're gonna make us hate him, dammit, no matter what it takes! If they have to call us nazis and misogynists and rape apologists and racists, then that's what they're gonna do.

I doubt they have managed to convert a single person to their side with these tactics but then again, I think that's not even the point. They get to be nasty to other fans in the name of social justice, and some people get a rush from that sort of thing.

Edited 2014-07-07 15:42 (UTC)

ummm I think Skye/Ward is STILL canon. Does it mean the show itself now became racist?

tldr this is taking it a bit too far. (incidentally where are these discussions happening? I do kind of feel left out of the fandom these days)

Oh, this is all on tumblr, it's a major hub for this fandom. And if you think this is taking it far, you ain't seen nothing yet. *hysterical laughter*

Yeah, I think that Skye/Ward is canon still. It's all kinds of fucked up right now but since when has that ever stopped shippers from shipping? Ships thrive on obstacles and drama. And I'm pretty sure the writers are aware of that.

Oh, Tumblr. I'm kind of at maximum tolerance for that site lately. It just seems to bring the seamy underbelly of fandom to the forefront and you just can't escape it - especially if you're like me and can't always Tumblr Savior things away.

Tumblr Savior didn't work for me, but I'm having good results with a combination of ignore (https://www.tumblr.com/ignore) and using XKit with the Blacklist extension to filter out certain key words, and then changing the settings so the filtered posts don't even show up on my dash any more.

Invaluable for a hassle-free tumblr experience. The filtered stuff still shows up when someone you follow reblogs it, but it's a fraction of what you'd normally see.

Well, it's canon in that they certainly were building a relationship, and he certainly has feelings for her. And she has feelings for him, although I think they're probably a tangled mess of "finds him attractive/is sentimental/is horrified and repulsed".

I don't see how anyone can claim the relationship isn't canon: it's right there on the screen. It's just also canon that she has rejected him, although certainly ficwriters can ignore/amend that as they see fit.

*nods*. well its less ignoring and amending, its more like at this point I am reading canon rejections where both sides still like each other as the act 2 of a relationship arc than the end of it. (Although I might have read one YA novel too many lately :P )

well its less ignoring and amending, its more like at this point I am reading canon rejections where both sides still like each other as the act 2 of a relationship arc than the end of it.

Yeah, me too. There's really no way of predicting where the show will thake them, everything's possible.

*hugs*

well there isn't a prerequisite of the happily ever after or honeymoon status for it to be a relationship. or well at least a ship and yeah.

(its just Skye/Ward isn't even my fav ship in this universe, or even in top 3. I am just more and more confused by all this strong feelings in the fandom.)

Edited (clarity) 2014-07-07 17:32 (UTC)

I kind of stopped listening to internet fandom about what shipping was and was not racist. (Not 100%, but largely, reasons below.)

I'm all for "if you always ship white couples or if you always pair the non-white characters together in the background, take another look at that." But stating "X pairing is always racist" or "Y pairing is never racist" is a little too black and white (talking actual colors on the color wheel, thank you) for me as compared to the shades of gray that I see the world in. It's one of those things where you can't just declare your pairing the winner because the other pairing is automatically racist. It's just not.

Yeah, I agree.

Black and white thinking is getting us nowhere, and if you want to promote diversity, this is 100% the wrong way to go about it.

eta: but like I said above, I suspect for many of these people it's not about promoting diversity, it's about being a bully and getting a self-righteous rush out of it.

Edited 2014-07-07 15:58 (UTC)

I think you are 100% correct in that, for many people, it's about being a bully and getting that self-righteous rush. Having an actual discussion about diversity in Agents of SHIELD and positing the question isn't nearly the same as rush as posting a polemic screed about how your pairing loses because it's racist.

Skye/Ward is not my cup of tea, but, that said, the whole divide of ideology between them is actually a pretty fascinating dynamic, and they'll probably explore that more next season, or so I hope. (The only thing I don't want them to do is pull the "Ward is redeemed by the love of a good woman" thing. If they redeem Ward, I want to see the hard work of the internal moral about face that Ward is going to have to do. Which I'm sure they will; they've been good about character development so far.)

I wouldn't call it bully, but.. gah... I don't want to be the ground zero of another wank but this is reminding me a lot of that old argument on how het as a category was a homophobe.

You can be racist through either of those pairings, and not be racist. Its all about how you interpret it.

Nevermind that with Ward the show made a very interesting move on some level. A character who is not clearly a villain. (he is but isn't) This to me is the premise of AoS, in that the line between the evil and good is not only narrow but also blurred as hell. You cannot neatly label everyone on one side or another. (which to me is a bit unlike the other superhero franchise items I have seen). So a generalization of "you just paired the PoC with the bad guy and being racist" (which is what I assume the argument here is) like this becomes doubly absurd.

See, yeah, I don't want to touch that as a wank, which is why I only comment on friends' journals when I trust them. :) I would say that, for some people, it's about that - or maybe trolling would be a better word? Or an unthinking imposition of a black and white worldview? I'm not sure what to word it as!

But yes, 100% in agreement: You can be racist through those pairings, but it's not inherently racist to ship either one of those.

Also, as someone who ships het-but-not-just-that, wow, someone tried to open that can of worms? Wow. Of course someone did. Why am I even surprised?

I think a bit about the line between trying to fix a problem and seeing the problem everywhere. I can see how it gets there, and sympathize on some level but also it does more harm then it does good.

I don't think anyone recently did. I still didn't recover from the last bout few years ago. (also OTW ate away all my fannish time so my memories remain fresh still *laughs*)

Also, as someone who ships het-but-not-just-that, wow, someone tried to open that can of worms? Wow. Of course someone did. Why am I even surprised?

Oh sure, I saw that, more than once. A lot more. Along with "slash as a category is misogynistic" and "Mary-Sue fic is misogynistic" and who knows what else. Haven't seen it as much recently though, but that's maybe because I stopped reading so much general meta since my tolerance towards this sort of fandom argument is very low atm. I took the meta comms off my filter.

Or an unthinking imposition of a black and white worldview? I'm not sure what to word it as!

I think some of them are just young, younger than twenty, and at that age you tend to think more in absolutes. I certainly did, and from all I hear and read, that's pretty normal. Not that it makes it any less annoying.

And some are just plain bullies.

I wouldn't call it bully, but.. gah..

I bet most of them would not actually see themselves as bullies. But their actions are speaking for themselves.

This to me is the premise of AoS, in that the line between the evil and good is not only narrow but also blurred as hell.

Yeah, totally. And it doesn't just apply to Ward, but to SHIELD as well, and the blurred line between SHIELD and HYDRA. This show isn't about a black/white dichotomy so it baffles me when some fans insist to paint it that way.

exactly.

I'm all for "if you always ship white couples or if you always pair the non-white characters together in the background, take another look at that."

See, that is absolutely a discussion worth having. Only in this case Skyeward has always been the most popular pairing, and Ward/Simmons a fringe ship, and this argument only makes sense if you look at trends. And there never was a trend of Simmons overshadowing Skye in fandom. So every single aspect of this is completely pointless and boggleworthy.

What? But why? Aren't both Skye and Simmons white? What difference does it make for the racial makeup for the couple. I'm confused.

Skye's biracial. Well, Chloe Bennett is half Chinese, but her character's backstory has her born in China so it's assumed that her character is too. As to what difference it makes, well, it gives people a reason to judge other people, that's all that's needed.

Ironically Skyeward has been and still is the most popular pairing, while Ward/Simmons is just a small ship, so there is no danger whatsoever of Simmons taking the spotlight from Skye. Which makes this argument all the more ridiculous.

Ah, that explains it. I actually hadn't noticed the biracial thing from her looks. And I almost never pay attention to actor details (or even remember their names unless there are enough actor fans in my circle who repeat them), and the China part of her backstory somehow slipped past me, though now that you mention it it does sound familiar. Bad fan, no cookie.

I have watched with great sadness, through your eyes, the weirdness about "This fandom does not allow Ward fans" and I just wanted to express my sympathy.

In a fandom that seems to be in love with Loki, not "allowing" fans to love Ward seems hypocritical at best.

I mean, I have seen fans of Smaug, of Lucius Malfoy, and of that supervillain in Macgyver whose name escapes me. So come on.

I am cheering you on. Hang in there. I hope the show gives you what you want IRT Ward.

I hope you find a way to keep them from harshing your squee. And that you are able to find the pockets and eddies that bring you joy and ignore the rest.

Some of it is coming from Loki fans, even. :/

And that you are able to find the pockets and eddies that bring you joy and ignore the rest.

Enjoying the fandom shouldn't be this much work, you know? The kinds of filters I have in place is absurd, but they are necessary.

Thank you! It's good to know these people aren't speaking for the entire fandom, even if they like to give the impression. It's like with any loud, obnoxious minority, they drown out the rest.

Any Loki fan who finds Ward irredeemable deserves to be laughed at, if you ask me.

For what it's worth, your squee about Grant Ward is making me rethink watching AOS. He's exactly the sort of character that I find interesting.

(MCU Loki, not so much. But then, I really had to work for any sort of coherent character arc for Loki. I didn't see one at all until Thor: the Dark World, and then I wished that Avengers had come some time after the Dark World timeline wise.)

Ward sounds like he comes with a character arc already built in. And I appreciate that, especially regarding morally ambiguous characters.

I'm not really interested in superheroes (mostly because the current cult around them seems Deeply and Unreasonably Outraged if you voice unease at the more alarming elements to them) but morally ambiguous government agents (and the questionable agencies who employ them) are up my alley, especially if the writing (if not the fandom) acknowledges that SHIELD might not be 'good' so much as 'not HYDRA'.

That all sounds like AoS could really be right up your alley.

Ward isn't like Loki at all since the potential for redemption was put in the canon, including an entire episode devoted to his past. His character arc has been very carefully developed. The MCU character he's closest to, imho, is Natasha Romanoff (only *before* Hawkeye gave her a chance to turn her life around instead of killing her).

I'm also a lot more interested in badass normals living in a world of superheroes than the actual superheroes, and I always found the SHIELD characters the most interesting aspects of the movies. And moral ambiguity is one of the things the show is about. It gets hinted at from early on that SHIELD is rotten. (My speculation during the first half was that season two would have Coulson's team going rogue because the orginazation was corrupt. I didn't see they Hydra thing coming at all, but that guess wasn't entirely off...)

Edited 2014-07-08 20:01 (UTC)