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Man of Steel!
[edit for new readers, 04/30: this post was part of a wider hypertext debate and focuses on but one aspect of it. Please read my previous post for context.]
Once upon a time, there were two guys, Joe and Jerry, who wrote a story about this super awesome dude who jumps as high as the tallest building. And he flies faster than a plane. And he's got strength up the wazoo. And he's using his power for good (because he's awesome like that) so he's fighting crime.
Everybody knows how the story goes: eventually they found a comic book publisher and the story turned out to be this huge success and the start of a giant franchise, triggered an entire genre and made a ton of money.
The story about the guy who is the strongest guy on Earth is at heart the ultimate boy's wish fulfillment fantasy. Pure and unfiltered. I read the first issue once and thought that quality-wise it was pretty clunky. If it was fic, I would've thought 'badfic'. But hey, the target group loved it.
Eventually he got more backstory, more characters to fight and otherwise interact with, and more character. I haven't read a lot of Superman but I think it's safe to say that he's a more rounded character than he was when he started out. The writers had the chance to develop the character over time.
If we are talking Sue, Action Comics #1's Superman would be the definitive one. But I think that would miss the point. He's not a Marty Stu, he's a hero. Heck, he's a Superhero.
Then after a while we got Supergirl, and after Batman there was Batgirl, and a bunch more but I'm not that into superhero comics so I can't list them all. Whodathunk: girls like wish-fulfillment fantasies too. (And the female form of hero is heroine. Not Mary Sue.)
No one has the right to tell girls that, no, they don't need self-insert fantasies, because they're perfect the way they are. So they shouldn't indulge in those. It’s for their own good!
Know what it sounds like in my ears? Don't dream big! Know your place!
Thanks, but that's a world of No from this dreamer.
... This post was brought to you by more than one poster saying that Mary Sue fantasies are sexist and should be opposed because they teach young women that they have to be perfect to be loved. I think that is getting it completely backwards and is super-unhelpful. I think the opposite is the case: these fantasies can be very empowering and dammit, they’re fun and girls have as much a right to them as boys.
yes, yes, I haven't even answered all my comments of the last few days but this post came to me as I was running, so I had to jot it down quickly and now I might as well post it. I hope I'm done with the meta now.
[eta: anonymous comments are screened]
Once upon a time, there were two guys, Joe and Jerry, who wrote a story about this super awesome dude who jumps as high as the tallest building. And he flies faster than a plane. And he's got strength up the wazoo. And he's using his power for good (because he's awesome like that) so he's fighting crime.
Everybody knows how the story goes: eventually they found a comic book publisher and the story turned out to be this huge success and the start of a giant franchise, triggered an entire genre and made a ton of money.
The story about the guy who is the strongest guy on Earth is at heart the ultimate boy's wish fulfillment fantasy. Pure and unfiltered. I read the first issue once and thought that quality-wise it was pretty clunky. If it was fic, I would've thought 'badfic'. But hey, the target group loved it.
Eventually he got more backstory, more characters to fight and otherwise interact with, and more character. I haven't read a lot of Superman but I think it's safe to say that he's a more rounded character than he was when he started out. The writers had the chance to develop the character over time.
If we are talking Sue, Action Comics #1's Superman would be the definitive one. But I think that would miss the point. He's not a Marty Stu, he's a hero. Heck, he's a Superhero.
Then after a while we got Supergirl, and after Batman there was Batgirl, and a bunch more but I'm not that into superhero comics so I can't list them all. Whodathunk: girls like wish-fulfillment fantasies too. (And the female form of hero is heroine. Not Mary Sue.)
No one has the right to tell girls that, no, they don't need self-insert fantasies, because they're perfect the way they are. So they shouldn't indulge in those. It’s for their own good!
Know what it sounds like in my ears? Don't dream big! Know your place!
Thanks, but that's a world of No from this dreamer.
... This post was brought to you by more than one poster saying that Mary Sue fantasies are sexist and should be opposed because they teach young women that they have to be perfect to be loved. I think that is getting it completely backwards and is super-unhelpful. I think the opposite is the case: these fantasies can be very empowering and dammit, they’re fun and girls have as much a right to them as boys.
yes, yes, I haven't even answered all my comments of the last few days but this post came to me as I was running, so I had to jot it down quickly and now I might as well post it. I hope I'm done with the meta now.
[eta: anonymous comments are screened]
no subject
(Anonymous) 2010-04-18 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)No, women don't have a right to keep insisting that women are only complete when approved by men, without facing criticism for it.
This is sexist, period. So, yes Mary Sues are sexist, and this will be pointed out again and again, and rightfully so. This is not missing the point, this is pointing out a sexist concept for what it is.
Heroines, on the other hand, are not necessarily sexist. Heroines are not Sues by design. These two things are not identical.
girls like wish-fulfillment fantasies too. (And the female form of hero is heroine. Not Mary Sue.)
A Sue is not a woman with a ton of abilities, nor a automatically wish-fulfilment character. Neither implies canon warping, which is the core trait of a Sue and has been ever since the term was coined.
That people use the term wrong does not mean the term suddenly has a new meaning. Even when people keep using regime instead of regimen, regimes aren't suddenly regimen. It just means a lot of people are using words/concepts wrong.
By the way:
Can you please stop insisting that awesome female characters are Sues? It's wrong, and you insisting so is insulting pretty much every story with an awesome female character that *gasp* manages to not have a Sue - which is the overwhelming majority of stories about female characters that are awesome.
We can write awesome female characters without godawful writing!
This includes characters that are "big dreams". A lot of female characters of this kind exist, from Superheroines to Buffy, and they manage to do fine without being Sues.
no subject
You miss the point, oh anonymous commenter. I'm insisting that awesome female characters aren't Sues. For more context, read my previous post.
No, women don't have a right to keep insisting that women are only complete when approved by men, without facing criticism for it.
My Sue was the leader of her own teen spy organization at one point, and an awesome martial artist in another incarnation. She was perfectly complete without a man, thankyouverymuch.
If you want to dismiss the entire trope because some of it is sexist, you'll have to dismiss, for example, slash because some of it is misogynist. Or, oh, het because some of it is sexist.
I'm really boggled by this trend in fandom to equate romance with sexism. Being in a romantic relationship doesn't equal conforming to gender stereotypes or devalue the woman.
And considering how the majority of non-Sue fic also consists of romance in the form of het or slash shipper fic, with writers often identifying with one of the characters to one degree or other (which is a form of self-insert, only much less obvious), I find it pretty hypocritical to dismiss Mary Sue fic for following the same pattern.
Apart from the fact that those Mary Sue fic that I have read... actually didn't; they were gen.
As a gen reader, btw, I think there's way too much ship/slash fic. But I wouldn't dismiss people's right to read romance. Humans like to read about romance.
I'd write more but I have a barbeque waiting for me and that sounds infinitely more fun than arguing with an anon who answers "girls have as much a right to something as boys" with "No!"