astridv | (no subject)

Hm, an interesting question.

I would have started by demoting her to the same level of supporting-cast attention that Carson originally had, before the whole returned from the dead clone nonsense. I would have made an effort to explain her history: how long had she been on Atlantis, how and when was she recruited to the SGC, what had she been doing prior to taking over as acting head of medicine, and for god's sake why had we never seen her before? I would have cast an actress who didn't appear to be in her mid-twenties and barely old enough to be out of medical school.

(Actually, I would have promoted Marie in Carson's place. Marie had a history on Atlantis. We saw her in action and knew she was experienced and at least halfway competent. It's the writers' fault that it was never quite made clear if she was a doctor or a nurse or a medical technician or what.)

I wouldn't have put Keller through the gate on missions as often, because historically the medics have been non-combatants on the series. Or, if I did decide to increase her time off-world, I would have explained the reason for the change in protocol.

I would have given her more scenes like the one where Carson makes the video inquiring about his mother's toenail fungus. That was an incredible amount of character insight smushed into an extremely small period of time. It was succinct and wonderful and Keller never received anything to my mind that stuck out nearly so well.

I wouldn't have dangled the Jennifer and Ronon angle in front of fans before dragging Rodney into half-assed romantic triangle. Most people liked the idea of Jennifer with Ronon, and there was enough groundwork that it could have developed into a believable match.

I would have struggled to come up with a damned good reason why any woman in her right mind would choose Rodney over Ronon. And it absolutely, positively couldn't have had anything to do with Rodney's winning personality, charm, or social grace, because he has none.

I would not have made Keller attracted to Rodney primarily when he was under the personality-altering influence of a parasite. I would not have set her in a fruitless contest of wills over Rodney's trip to the shrine against Rodney's entire team and Rodney's much-loved (by fans) sister. Nor would I have made constant reference to the developing romance when Rodney's previous girlfriend was mentioned every six months or so, because I would not want to have to explain why Jennifer was deserving of far more attention than Katie Brown, who was a young, beautiful and intelligent scientist in her own right.

I would have re-shot that kiss on the airplane until there was at least the suggestion of potential chemistry between the two actors.

I would not have portrayed Rodney and Jennifer's future relationship in Last Man as a pair of shell-shocked survivors clinging to each other for the expedient reason that all other alternatives are dead. That's just begging for fans to perceive the relationship as "wrong" from the start.

I would have struggled to come up with a damned good reason why any woman in her right mind would choose Rodney over Ronon. And it absolutely, positively couldn't have had anything to do with Rodney's winning personality, charm, or social grace, because he has none.

You can't be serious. Hey, let's ask the half of this fandom who has the hots for McKay what on earth we find so attractive about him!

I would not have made Keller attracted to Rodney primarily when he was under the personality-altering influence of a parasite.

She wasn't. She had started to get attracted to him much earlier. Actually, while I was watching Trio - she perks up when McKays says he's broken up with Katie - I thought, huh, is she interested in him? Then she asks him out for drinks and I'm thinking, huh, she is, whoda thunk. That is why I started shipping them, it had never occurred to me before. From then on there were subtle hints, plus the plot of Last Man: Shrine didn't happen in Last Man, so could it just be that those two are attracted to each other??

I would have re-shot that kiss on the airplane until there was at least the suggestion of potential chemistry between the two actors.

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. There was chemistry aplenty - in *my* opinion. If a pairing breaks your OTP, you're just not goint to see the chemistry between them, ever.

I would not have portrayed Rodney and Jennifer's future relationship in Last Man as a pair of shell-shocked survivors clinging to each other for the expedient reason that all other alternatives are dead. That's just begging for fans to perceive the relationship as "wrong" from the start.

But it didn't. Interestingly enough, there was very little anti-Jennifer, anti-McKeller sentiment after Last Man. In all the discussion posts I read McSheppers were cool with it, because it was safely AU and thus no threat, I assume. The main complaint I saw was that it was Jennifer's death that triggered McKay's plan, not John's disappearance, but fans were ultimately okay with that because her death was just the final straw. That was the discussion back then: is she more important to him than John, of course not, cool.

I would have given her more scenes like the one where Carson makes the video inquiring about his mother's toenail fungus. That was an incredible amount of character insight smushed into an extremely small period of time. It was succinct and wonderful and Keller never received anything to my mind that stuck out nearly so well.

That I agree with. I would've loved to see more scenes like that. But considering how fans complained when she was in an ep for even a few seconds, five lines, I doubt those scenes would've been appreciated by the people that were already dead set on hating her. Like friendshipper said, there is no way of winning her. It's a lose-lose scenario.

Hey, let's ask the half of this fandom who has the hots for McKay what on earth we find so attractive about him!

Bwahaha. Okay, I'll start!

Reasons to Love Rodney (How many can we get?)

1. He does what needs to be done even when he's terrified.

2. His eyelashes.

3. The hug in "McKay & Mrs. Miller".

4. Handporn!

5. The way he makes John laugh in "Trinity", by being all excited about sciency stuff.

YOUR TURN NOW! :D

6. His heart-shaped ass!

okay, I'm just quoting fandom. I honestly never noticed McKay's behind.
Those Eyelashes though, mmh...

7. The way his voice just cracks when he's really emotional or emphatic (I was watching Brotherhood last night, and the part where he goes "If you ever want to go home again, if you ever hope to defend Atlantis from the Wraith...")... that line was so well-acted, it even made me forgive them the clunky exposition that preceded it.

8. Oh, oh, how could I forget: His brilliant mind.
Seriously, McKay doing his smart scientist thing... so hot. The only thing I find hotter is Sam/Rodney doing the bickering smart scientist thing.

Edited 2009-10-14 10:45 (UTC)

LOL. The general fannish (well, I guess it's more slash-ish) obsession with characters' asses is hilarious to me. I can't think off the top of my head of a male character whose ass I've specifically noticed, at least when it hasn't been repeatedly pointed out in fic (at which point I kinda have to look just to see what all the fuss is about).

Anyway!

8. Coming up with unique and individual (and thoughtful!) presents for his friends as his last act rather than continuing to try to save himself in "Tao of Rodney". Even when it involved doing things that he would normally consider embarrassing or beneath him.

9. His intelligence. It may occasionally be overplayed in canon, but I do love a really smart man.

10. The way that he doesn't hesitate to say what he's thinking. Even when he really shouldn't!

9. His intelligence. It may occasionally be overplayed in canon, but I do love a really smart man.

*g* great minds think alike... I was just sneaking this edit in.

LOL, yeah, we crossposted! *g*

Well, it's so important to his character that it needed to be mentioned twice!

(Skipping a #, since we had two #8's.)

12. He's not movie-star handsome; he's a little bit overweight and a little bit out of shape. And somehow it makes him sexier, because you never feel like the show is trying to make him look good. He just does.

13. The little down-turn at the corner of his mouth, and the way it makes his smile all crooked.

14. The fact that he learns from the first time he really pisses John off, and the second time he screws up in John's eyes (Adrift) he apologizes immediately and obviously wants to make it right.

yes, those!

15. branching out from #8... the present he gives Teyla for her pregnancy, which is so egocentric and yet somehow sweet and thoughtful and totally McKay.

16. Leadership! (which has become an in-joke with me and my friends whenever someone's rambling; thank you Stargate.)

Leadership! Hee! I loved that. :D

17. The adorableness that is Rodney and Jeannie in the same room together.

18. The way he types. I know this is probably silly, but I love watching Rodney's hands when he's punching buttons -- a couple instances of what I'm talking about are Rodney typing on the LSD in the jumper in "38 Minutes", or punching the buttons on Sheppard's space suit in "Midway".

19. Promising Teyla to get her back to her son in "Daedalus Variations". And wanting to hold the baby! (Because we all know Rodney's stated feelings on kids. But it's different when it's Teyla's kid.)

...Okay, I have a feeling I'll regret getting into this...I wanted to stay out of it, but just, this point was too much for me to resist, because, THIS *hands flappy wavey excitedly* this was one of my biggest problems with the Rodney/Keller relationship (leaving aside my problems with Keller as a character in general). This also ties into your question of how would you write her, by answering instead how I would write their relationship.

Yes, there are tons of wonderful reasons why someone would chose Rodney over Ronon. I adore Ronon, but I would take Rodney any day. For all the reasons you just listed and so many more. (For example, the fact that he CAN be an snarktastic asshole. I have a thing for that, honestly).

But the question remains, what are *Keller's* reasons for making the choice?

If we saw her just staring, captivated, at his hands, ass, eyelashes, etc. If he spouted off some crazy technobable and she just couldn't help but pounce (as is a rather popular troupe in McShep stuff), if she got that same goofy smile John gets when Rodney goes off excitedly. If it made it clear her physical type was more along his lines (instead of implying early on that she seems to find Ronon's type attractive).

The times that she clearly expresses attraction to Rodney are the times when he's being sweet (ie when he's visiting Carson's freezer) or being heroic (end of Brainstorm) or when he's being awkwardly flirty (Shrine). Which are traits that, while Rodney might have, are ones he only occasionally expresses. Ronon, for example, is much more the classic heroic type. Or John. And almost any character, on the whole, is more generally "sweet". Rodney can do it, yes, but it's not his natural, first inclination.

And then there's the question, which almost never gets addressed on TV: what does the guy see in the girl, besides a pretty/cute/sexy package? Why does Rodney really want Keller, besides the fact that she'll actually give him the time of day? 'Cause that's not a healthy basis for a relationship. Oh, she's cute and she'll actually talk to me, thus she's the one for me. How long will that really last? (Which was the problem I always got the impression the show was deliberately trying to point out with Katie and Rodney, and seemed to be happening yet again with Keller and Rodney, but maybe that's just me...).

One of my favorite relationships of SG universe is Sam and Rodney (especially SG-1 Rodney). And it's precisely because he snarks back at her. Hell, he outright insults her. (He gets more meek and awkward with her in SGA, which I honestly found somewhat disappointing). When they first meet, she has to earn his respect as much as vice versa. Added to that, Sam and Rodney share an understanding of their field in a way almost no one else can. They share something fundamentally unique, that they can find in no one else.

And as for McShep fans, we know what John and Rodney see in each other, what they *do* together. (Video games, racing cars, trivia games, watch movies, etc. They're both scifi geeks, etc).

What would Keller and Rodney *do* together? On their dates? Later, as their relationship evolves? We know, canonically, Rodney's low opinion of the medical sciences. And from the game in Trio, we're given evidence Keller knows little of physics.

We know next to nothing of Keller's interests outside of work. One small hint we get is she likes (or at least at one time) going to bars, hanging out, socializing...Something Rodney often seems less than comfortable with.

And yes, maybe Keller actually is a total scifi geek herself, and likes nothing better than to sit back and enjoy some good Star Trek, etc. But we never *see* it. ( I could make a case for this being just one of the ways that women characters aren't written as well. It's not the inconsistency of writing, but the lack of fleshing out. It was said above somewhere that fans just flesh out the male characters more. But the show *has* done some of it for us first, in the case of the men. I mentioned already Rodney and John's hobbies above, we know Lorne likes to paint, that Zelenka raises pigeons, that Woolsey enjoys fine wine and classic music. That Ronon liked poetry/to sing (from deleted scene). What about Keller?)

Give me them cuddling up together while watching Star Wars, give me them playing Halo together, and it would have won me (I'm a total sucker for geeks in love).

So the question still remains, why *did* she choose Rodney? We know why she *could* have, potentially, just never why she did.

The times that she clearly expresses attraction to Rodney are the times when he's being sweet (ie when he's visiting Carson's freezer) or being heroic (end of Brainstorm) or when he's being awkwardly flirty (Shrine).

You forgot Trio. The very first time that Keller asks Rodney out, she's just spent several hours trapped with him in a small room. She's just seen Rodney in the full spectrum of his Rodney-ness -- his obnoxiousness, his refusal to help if he doesn't agree with the plan, his snark, his bitchiness ... and the sweetness and heroism that he's capable of, too. And at the end of all of that, she asks him to go have a beer with him.

So why assume the worst? Why assume that Keller's got the intelligence of a mushroom and the short-term memory of a fruitfly, and that Rodney's one act of heroism at the end of the episode wiped out the memory of everything else? She knows this guy; she's known him for a year, and there are various instances of snark throughout season four, from her, regarding Rodney's hypochondriac tendencies. She knows him. Fandom is fully capable of inventing interests in common for John and Rodney (prior to season three, we never ever saw them hanging out off duty, but the fic in which they watched movies together or played games together was legion -- there were tons of fic with chess games before chess turned up in canon). Fandom is fully capable of writing around Rodney's thorough canonical heterosexuality. Yeah, it would have been awesome to have seen Rodney and Keller hanging out and playing video games in canon. I would have loved that. But why the hell is canon suddenly this massive sticking point when fandom has no trouble at all looking outside the boundaries of canon if it wants to?

And, okay, let's turn it around. Why would Keller choose Ronon? What do they have in common? What would they spend the whole day doing? Going strictly off canon, we know that Ronon's interests are shooting things and working out in the gym. That sounds like an awesome recipe for a relationship with a woman who is clearly not a physical type. Actually, that was totally my reading of Keller's eventual choice, given the circumstances under which it happened. She was initially attracted to him, but eventually found his overt physicality -- that is, the fact that he's a do-er and not a thinker -- a turn-off. That seems totally realistic to me! The brainy girl thought the jock was hot, got to know the geek and realized that her attraction to the jock was mostly surface and she found the geek more to her tastes.

And why the fuck do those of us who like Keller, and Rodney/Keller, have to JUSTIFY ourselves all the time? Why does bringing up Keller or the Rodney/Keller pairing inevitably mean that we have to hunt through canon, scraping together our canon justifications for it? When have I ever, ever, EVER done that to you with John/Rodney? When have I EVER barged into a discussion about John/Rodney on your or Emilie's journal or ANYONE'S journal and started demanding all your reasons for liking the pairing and shooting down every one you can come up with. Go on, point to all the times I've done that to you, or to her, or to ANY John/Rodney fan. Go on. Point them out. Because I'd like to see it. Because right now it feels to me like every single time I have tried to have a discussion about Keller/McKay I have inevitably found myself being hounded by either John/Rodney shippers or people who dislike Keller, forced to justify the fact that I don't hate the pairing -- and I am sick to fucking death of it. You'll notice that what got this whole long discussion started was

whizzy coming into a discussion that was clearly full of Keller supporters -- or at least people who don't like to see her bashed -- and making blanket statements about how she stole Teyla's role in canon. This happens every time and I am sick to death of it. I will be totally willing to live and let live with the John/Rodney and anti-Keller side of fandom if I can say "Squee! I think Rodney/Keller is cute!" and not end up in a long argument where I am repeatedly forced to justify my liking of the character and pairing, where I repeatedly have my ability to accurately read canon called into question.

You know why I've been backing away from SGA fandom? It's because of this. Because of stuff like what is happening in this thread. Because of stuff like what happened in the thread on this topic at my journal. Because I am sick to death of being made to feel less because my reading of canon doesn't agree with other fans.

Edited 2009-10-14 19:54 (UTC)

And why the fuck do those of us who like Keller, and Rodney/Keller, have to JUSTIFY ourselves all the time?

THANK YOU!

You'll notice that what got this whole long discussion started was whizzy coming into a discussion that was clearly full of Keller supporters -- or at least people who don't like to see her bashed -- and making blanket statements about how she stole Teyla's role in canon. This happens every time and I am sick to death of it.

I'm sorry that you feel so hounded by Keller haters in this fandom that you perceive criticism of her character or role in the series as a personal attack. If I'd had any idea that my comments were going to spark so many replies, I could have taken the discussion out of Astridv's journal and into my own. (Which, by the way, I welcome everyone to do.)

...I'd knew I'd regret it. Just a few things, in my personal defense, and then I'll let it go.

First: Fandom is fully capable of inventing interests in common for John and Rodney (prior to season three, we never ever saw them hanging out off duty, but the fic in which they watched movies together or played games together was legion

I agree totally. This is true. In the first two seasons there's a bit between John and Rodney, mentions that they both know scifi, but certainly nothing concrete about them doing stuff together. AND, for me, personally, I did not *at all* buy the John/Rodney until late season three/season 4. I knew it was very popular in the fandom, and thusly

xparrot and I kept wondering where everyone was getting it. No, this does not go for everyone, I'm just talking about me. But I, personally, like more canonical evidence, so for me, John and Rodney struck me as out of character until they started giving us more stuff. I wasn't able to even bring myself to read the slash fic until I'd been into the fandom for months. So, in honesty, if SGA had gone on later, and the Keller and Rodney relationship had developed further and they started giving us things like that, then maybe I would have been able to get into it more. (As a note, again, for me, personally, this is a problem I have with a LOT of romance on TV. And often why in the end I wind up with slash, including fem slash. Because in the heternormative world, if a guy and a girl need to have interaction, the show can always fall back on the "OMG UST, we're attracted to each other and nothing more needs be shown or said about our relationship" but for two guys, or two girls, if they want to establish some rapport between them, friendship or whatnot, some common interests, activities, hobbies, sense of humor, shared experience, whatever, is needed).

Secondly, I wasn't trying to jump in on a Keller squee post. I know that some fans have been jumping in and derailing any positive McKeller post and I have, or thought I had, avoided disrupting any of that squee. I recognize everyone has different tastes and I'm honestly not trying to tell you you can't like it or need to defend it. I more feel a need to defend why I *don't* like it. It just so happens, that again, for me personally, the majority of my flist into SGA was pro-Keller, so neechan and I felt, the way you do, the need to defend our particular view. In this particular instance, I was linked to this post through discussions concerning character bashing, reasons for bashing and disliking female characters, possible double standards towards female characters and possible misogynistic tendencies. If I misunderstood the intent of the discussion, my apologies.

Third, while I have never been attacked or questioned for liking McShep, when I, a while back, posted on my personal problems with Keller as a character, there were several Keller supporters who did jump in on the discussion and whose defense for her in part consisted of pointing out all the flaws of the other characters and bringing them down as much as possible. So it might not happen as often, but yes, it can go both ways. Unfortunately, it seems to be the nature of these discussions.

Again, the intent was not to offend, and I apologize.

Thank you for the apology. :)

As I said to Emilie downthread, several people last winter (including you and her, I think) very fairly took me to task for jumping into critical discussions about Keller outside my own LJ. I thought it was a just criticism and I haven't done it since, and I apologize very sincerely for doing it then.

This is apparently a topic that I am too emotionally involved with to be able to defend my viewpoint calmly and rationally. It hurts too much; I get angry and lash out. Knowing that, I plan to stay out of discussions on the subject in the future unless it's in my own journal where I can justifiably defend my own territory. So, I apologize for lashing out at you, and I plan to use judicious LJ filtering and a modicum of common sense to avoid putting myself into that kind of situation in the future, and hopefully we'll all get along. :)

And why the fuck do those of us who like Keller, and Rodney/Keller, have to JUSTIFY ourselves all the time?

What friendshipper said. I refuse to justify myself for liking her character or this pairing, again and again and again and again and again. AND AGAIN. Not gonna happen. Least of all on my own frikking journal.

There is no point in arguing about ship preferences. Shipping is irrational. As long as people don't go out of their way to spread hate for a character or pairing they don't like and ruin it for those who do, but happily fan on the things they like, it's all good.

Other than that, I think I said my thing in these two discussion threads, and I don't want to repeat myself. I've done enough tl;dr during the past day.

I want to apologize for making you feel that way, especially on your own journal. My intention was not to make you feel you have to justify yourself. As I said above in response to

sholio, while it may be a minority opinion (I'm not certain), it happens that on my flist, the majority of SGA fans ARE Keller supporters. I've been joining thes discussions more because I keep feeling like a need to defend why I'm not a supporter. (Particularly when I'm a self-identified Jewel Staite fan).

I really do respect that you enjoy the pairing, and the character, and did not intend to harsh on anyone's squee. I know, especially when it comes to shipping, to each their own.

I would have struggled to come up with a damned good reason why any woman in her right mind would choose Rodney over Ronon. And it absolutely, positively couldn't have had anything to do with Rodney's winning personality, charm, or social grace, because he has none.

You can't be serious. Hey, let's ask the half of this fandom who has the hots for McKay what on earth we find so attractive about him!

Ah, but having the hots for someone is a far cry from wanting to make a lifelong commitment to them. I don't think you could last long in the SGA fandom if you didn't think McKay was a great character, and David Hewlett is indeed hot. But personally, I would have severe misgivings about marrying a self-absorbed workaholic in real life. Rodney has a lot of character faults, as it's been pointed out, that make him less than ideal husband material.

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. There was chemistry aplenty - in *my* opinion. If a pairing breaks your OTP, you're just not goint to see the chemistry between them, ever.

Yes, but by the same logic, if the pairing is your ship, you're going to see chemistry where other people don't.

Interestingly enough, there was very little anti-Jennifer, anti-McKeller sentiment after Last Man.

Huh, now this really surprises me. I thought that the way their relationship was portrayed in that episode had an unhealthy basis. When you're emotionally battered and grieving and your entire life has been thrown into disarray, you'd be more prone to enter into a relationship for the wrong reasons, such as a desire to cling to any comfort and familiarity and reminder of the past. I would have expected other fans to pick up on that point, not just be cool with the whole thing because hey, it's okay, she died.