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I wonder how people would feel if they constantly got comments like "I had to grit my teeth to get past the McShep but otherwise great story" or "Obviously I skipped past the McShep parts because that pairing is just wrong, but great fic!" or "Rodney is such a terrible character because [list of reasons why Rodney McKay is a terrible character] and I hate him on the show but you almost made me like him here!"? Because people comment like that on fanwork that contains McKeller All. The. Time. All the fucking time.

(I just saw another one first thing this morning.)

Or how would they feel about fic requests at genrefinders phrased "since obviously Sheppard and McKay are both straight, the slash makes no sense and it's OOC so I'm looking for Rodney/Katie and John/Larrin."

You know what all this looks like to me? Like a discouraging tactic, to actively discourage people from including any hint of Keller or Rodney/Jennifer in their fanwork at all. Maybe that's not the intention, maybe it's just thoughtlessness, but that's how it's starting to come across to me.

Seriously, is it so terrible to have a bit of diversity in fandom? Is another pairing so threatening? I don't get it.

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Honestly, I think it's simple short-sightedness. Some fans can't imagine anyone would have a different point of view, and since there are so many John/Rodney fans, they assume that their posts won't be read by fans with broader tastes.

But trust me, there are many, many John/Rodney fans who are deeply uncomfortable with Rodney/Jennifer bashing. And that *will* be visible in our fic (if certain of us ever manage to finish our WIPs).

Honestly, I think it's simple short-sightedness. Some fans can't imagine anyone would have a different point of view, and since there are so many John/Rodney fans, they assume that their posts won't be read by fans with broader tastes.

But that's just it... it's not only their posts. It's everywhere. It is in comments to fic featuring Keller that people launch into explanations how that character ruined the show for them while, hey btw, great fic! There's really now way of assuming the writer and reader of that fic don't have tastes beyond John/Rodney. So why comment this way?

Another example, this thread (http://community.livejournal.com/halfamoon/71356.html?thread=339900#t339900), dedicated to sharing the character love. They even included a line about keeping criticism to yourself. Didn't stop people. You get comments along the line of "I would love her a lot if she wasn't so crappily written". Which I don't exactly see as an expression of character love.

But trust me, there are many, many John/Rodney fans who are deeply uncomfortable with Rodney/Jennifer bashing.

I guess. Though it's kind of hard to tell. I haven't seen many people object to lines like "lets douse her in gasoline and set her on fire", or similar ones that would've caused an uproar if they had been about, say, Teyla (and rightfully so.)

And that *will* be visible in our fic (if certain of us ever manage to finish our WIPs).

Well, now that does put me in a better mood. :)

Okay, that's the side of the fandom I don't see, and I understand your frustration. But it definitely isn't all John/Rodney fans, or even the majority.

A month or two ago there was a huge blow up over a fic in which Keller was apparently killed off just so that Rodney and John could be together (I don't know exactly how, because I couldn't bear to read the fic). Most of the people who were outraged were John/Rodney fans. And yes, they commented publicly, and yes, it created a (unspoken, but real) schism among John/Rodney fans.

I don't know if it affected the amount of public Keller-bashing or not. It's hard for me to tell because my flist is skewed towards people who oppose bashing. So perhaps it's wrong of me to hang out in my safe little corner of fandom, but fandom is my happy place, and that's how I cope.

ETA: The more I think about this, the more I realize I have no idea if I'm in the majority or the minority. Ack! I'm not trying to defend John/Rodney fans as a whole, or to say the bashing doesn't exist. Not at all! What I'm trying to say is that you're not alone, and that there are John/Rodney OTPers who are frustrated with exactly the same thing. *hugs*

Oh, yes. I saw the fic in question. Even read it (well, skimmed. It was too awful to read), and I read all the comments. Have the screencaps saved for the next time someone wants to tell me there's no misogyny in this fandom.

I don't know if it affected the amount of public Keller-bashing or not.

It helped some. The public bashing at places like the noticeboard more or less stopped, that might have something to do with that. But as to the little needling passive-aggressive bashing in the comments to Keller-centric fic though, that's been going on unchanged.

ETA: The more I think about this, the more I realize I have no idea if I'm in the majority or the minority.

I couldn't tell either. Would be interesting to have some actual numbers.

But that's just it... it's not only their posts. It's everywhere. It is in comments to fic featuring Keller that people launch into explanations how that character ruined the show for them while, hey btw, great fic!

I've seen this just recently in my friend's Beth fic “Perchance to Dream” that had strong Keller sections in it, and yes heave forbid acknowledged the Rodney/Keller relationship...and people made comments about not 'letting it ruin' the story for them.

I'm talking about a mere acknowledgment of it, and the even then it was the two of them working together in a professional capacity. How silly is that?

I was her beta and we both have the same opinion. We're canon writers. It's' canon they are together. It's amazing that alluding to it in the slightest can garner remarks. Though we've both written Keller with a little more gravitas, but that's the point of fan fiction. Taking the frameworks and hints and building on it, but that's another topic.

Stuff like those comments don't taint my love for the show, though makes me shake my head a little about our fans. We're a loyal, obsessive bunch, but seem to view the world in our specific rose-colored glasses.

I saw that. That one might've actually been the comment that broke the camel's back.

I read that fic. Great story. Strong Sheppard, strong McKay, cool plot, good use of Keller (yay!) and... yeah. Background acknowledgment that the two are together, nothing more. No kissing, no cuddling that I remember, nothing shipping going on. And yet even that is quite obviously too much for this fandom to handle, and people won't hesitate to inform the writer of that fact, so that she realize the Error of her Ways. May it not ever happen again.

I really need an *eyeroll* icon...

Same thing happened to less of a degree when we wrote “Exhuming McCarthy” (http://everybetty.livejournal.com/12509.html#cutid1) together.

This was before the ship but Keller had a decent role, and people commented often about liking our 'version of her', but we took that as a compliment though it was still a bit odd.

I'm guilty about that in regards to slash fics though. I'm a gen reader who dips her toes in slash if the ship is a backdrop. Reading this post makes me re-think how I should comment.

Yeah, I would actually consider that story a perfect example of how to handle canon romance in a gen story. There was nothing overtly shippy, nothing that I would think a non-gen reader should object to, and I don't think it was even specifically referred to as a relationship, per se -- you could see them as simply close colleagues working together if you're so inclined. But at the same time, the romance was there as background color and a nod to canon. I remember thinking that she'd done a great job of including it without doing so in a way that ought to upset the apple cart; I wish I was more surprised that people objected to it, but I'm not really, considering that people complained about Keller appearing in 10 seconds of the episodes in which she did no more than cameo ...

I agree. I'll let her know your thoughts on the subject and that you enjoyed the story though I think this type of stuff doesn't bother her too much. I'm the one who tends to get caught up in a few of the meta/politcal aspects of the fandom :D

Oh I missed that fic. Do you have a link?

Here you go. It was re-dip into writing after a slump period.

“Perchance to Dream” (http://everybetty.livejournal.com/20759.html#cutid1)

I heartily second this. (And, no pressure or anything, but new

crysothemis fic? AWESOME!)

The more diverse a fandom is in terms of ships and types of fic written, the more active and vibrant it will be, which is *especially* important once you're dealing with closed canon. Fandom should be a kaleidoscope, where you can have a whole host of different interpretations layering over on-screen canon.

I made the decision quite a while ago to never leave story feedback of the "I don't normally like this pairing but..." type -- although that kind of feedback can be meant sincerely (for eg, it can be intended as a compliment: "I don't normally like this pairing, but your writing convinced me"), it is always going to be a bit of a double-edged sword to the fic writer, who *does* like that pairing -- enough to spend a chunk of her free time writing about it.

Ack! I've just got to finish this darn thing. And hope and pray it lives up to expectations.

I agree about fandom as a kaleidoscope. The more it becomes writing a set fanon, the less engaging it becomes, at least in my experience.

And yeah, I totally agree about the "I don't normally like" comments. Although occasionally I catch myself starting to type that, so it's possible I've slipped up. ;)

And hope and pray it lives up to expectations.

You always do. And dude, my expectations are pretty frickin' high. ;)

*blushes and whimpers*

The more diverse a fandom is in terms of ships and types of fic written, the more active and vibrant it will be, which is *especially* important once you're dealing with closed canon. Fandom should be a kaleidoscope, where you can have a whole host of different interpretations layering over on-screen canon.

I completely agree.

I just don't *see* it, you know? Not at the moment.

it is always going to be a bit of a double-edged sword to the fic writer

Well, no, it isn't. It's often going to be a gamble as to whether the author will appreciate the comment or not, because some people like those comments and some don't. But many people who like them like them wholeheartedly. I know I do. The fact that someone liked something of mine when they weren't already primed to like it because of pairing/trope/whatever is pretty much the highest compliment I can get, definitely not something I feel ambivalent about.

Yeah, like concrit, it's a total crapshoot how the author will react to it.

For me, however, there's a big difference between reviews along the lines of "I don't normally like [pairing x], but you made me believe in it" -- I love those sorts of reviews, personally -- and reviews such as "I can't stand [character y]'s whining, but I just skipped the parts of the story that she was in, and I liked the rest of it". It's similar to the difference between concrit of the "You misplaced some commas and spelled Ronon's name wrong" variety, and concrit of the "That's a horrible ending and you ruined my whole day with this story" variety. One's actually useful; the other just makes you go, "And you're telling me this, why?"

It probably has a lot to do with where my personal filters are set, however.

Definitely. It seemed like you were talking about the former in your comment, not the latter. "I skipped the parts she was in" seems like...idk, like people who do search and replace on names so that the story is now about their OTP. Not only is it stupid and bizarre, but why would anyone think the author would want to hear that?

I think the comment you're replying to (which wasn't mine) actually might have been talking more about the former sort of feedback than the latter, but I'm not really sure, because I keep getting feedback of the "I liked your story except you included this character I hated" variety, or people arguing with me about the pairing choices in the story, stuff like that. I do think that readers ought to be able to speak their minds; it's just that after a while I start to wonder what they're hoping to accomplish by it.

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